HM: Tell me about some of the other artists you’ve worked with.

AR: Sure … after Don, there was Crystal (Gayle). I got to work with her because of Larry Butler who was runnin’ United Artists’ which was her label at the time. Larry called me and said, "I like the work you’ve been doing with Don Williams, and I’d like for you to cut some things for us." And by the way, that’s the only time a record label director ever did that ... called and said, "I like the work you’ve been doing. Would you do something for us?" I was thrilled. So, he offered me three artists … one was a group from Texas, called Calico. Crystal was another one, and the third was a well known singer who’s career in the United States was pretty well finished by then, but he still had a big career in England. I didn’t think I was quite right for that project, but I said "yes" to Crystal and Calico. I think the label at that time may have been a little more excited about the group from Texas, but my commission was to cut one single on Crystal and one on the band. The first session I cut with her was Wrong Road Again (Allen Reynolds) and When I Dream (Sandy Mason) … those two songs, and I thought When I Dream was too good to put on the B-side.

HM: So you saved it for later?

AR: Yeah. When I Dream was on the first album, but we cut a Kelso Hurston song for the B-side of Wrong Road Again. And then later, we re-cut When I Dream for the version that became a single, the version she became known for.

HM: And Wrong Road Again was a hit?

AR: It went to #5 in the charts. And after that Larry asked me to do an album on Crystal and an album on the group, so I did both of them. The band never really flew … nice people and they were good, but it just never flew. But working with Crystal … that was just a wonderful collaboration. She was very young and sang so good. She was Loretta Lynn’s little sister, but she was not Loretta … there were a lot of years between them. And she was born in Butcher Holler, but she grew up in Wabash, Indiana, so her background and influences were different from Loretta’s. Joni Mitchell, Judy Collins, Leslie Gore and Brenda Lee were people that Crystal had been a fan of. I’d enjoyed some of the same artists, so she and I always had a lot of agreement about songs, and that continued throughout the time we worked together. That was always just a real sweet collaboration, a fun thing. Crystal didn’t write very much. She and (her husband) Bill wrote one of the songs on the first album that we did, and they wrote a song later on in her career, and otherwise, she was a singer … a great singer … and we looked for songs together. It was fun, we never had any wrestling matches where she wanted to do something and I didn’t or vise versa. I still feel proud of the work we did. I think we found some great songs. And she felt the way I did … that great songs make great careers.

HM: Who after that?

AR: Other artists I worked with … let’s see … I worked with various projects that didn’t fly … like Peeble Daniel who was a wonderful person, and a great singer. We did an album, but it never got a chance, really. And then it was time for Crystal and I to move along, and I spent two or three years trying to "find it"… trying to figure out what I was going to do next. By then the word was out that I was "good with girl singers", and I was not being offered the things I wanted to say yes to. I got real close to selling the studio and leaving production and going back to songwriting. Then I met Kathy Mattea., and that was a turning point in my life. Working with her was fun and was nourishing to me, and consequently I got re-energized. We had a great time, and I still love the music that we found to do together. Then after I got re-energized, I got to work with a lot of people I wanted to say yes to: from Randy Van Warmer and Johnny Rodriquez, whose albums barely got released … or in Johnny’s case didn’t get released at all … to Emmylou Harris, Hal Ketchum, the Memphis Boys and Garth. I’ve been really lucky about who I got to work with, but I was also stubborn about saying no to things that didn’t really turn me on. That resulted in me spending some anxious time twiddling my thumbs and all of that.

HM: I love the album you did with Emmylou, COWGIRL’S PRAYER.

AR: Emmylou was like … well gosh, everybody loves her and respects her. I co-produced her with Richard Bennett, and that was just a great thrill. And Hal Ketchum … I think he’s one of the most talented men I ever worked with. Jim Rooney and I produced him, and we only did three albums together, but I still love them. I think we did some surprisingly good work in that short period of time.

HM: Garth was fun to work with?

AR: Yeah, I just couldn’t imagine anybody I would have had more fun working with than I’ve had working with Garth. I love the songs we did. And he got me into types of songs that I never had dealt with before, and also an energy that was new to me. And I learned a whole lot, you know. I didn’t get started with him until I was in my late 40s … I may have been 50 … so I was kind of at that point where you don’t really know if you’re gonna be needed any longer as a producer. And you might feel like you’ve learned all you’re gonna learn. And then all of a sudden you find an experience like that … and you learn just a whole boat-load of stuff that you never thought about, and that makes your work happy work, makes it pleasant. So that’s been a lot of fun.

HM: How ‘bout Ruby and Shawn?

AR: Ruby Lovett and Shawn Camp are two artists that I loved working with just as much as anybody I’ve ever worked with. I love the music we’ve done. Ruby didn’t really get a chance, and I’m sorry about that. I don’t know why her label let her down, but they did. Maybe they just didn’t agree with us on the music that we made, but I think it was really good. I think that the album we made was a fine piece of work and a hell of a starting point! And you know, if she’d have just gotten any kind of chance … well. And Shawn never got a chance with his album. And I don’t know why, ‘cause when it comes to country music, I think it’s the best country music I’ve ever been associated with. I think Shawn is an exciting talent … multiple talent. As a writer, as a singer, as an instrumentalist … he’s just dynamite! Where I come from it wouldn’t have been any trouble getting people excited about Shawn, and seeing that this guy got a chance out there. And he’s not gotten a chance … not as an artist. He’s done well as a writer, but why he hasn’t gotten a chance as an artist on the work that we did, I don’t know. But there’s a whole lot I don’t have an explanation for when it comes to what happens and what doesn’t. As you know, it’s a whimsical, fickle racket that we’re in. Labels don’t level with you … labels are liars. And you can quote me on that!

HM: It seems to me that the labels are no longer interested in actually "developing" artists.

AR: Yeah, and some of the most exciting, creative people … writers’ and artists and musicians … they maybe got there on their fourth, maybe fifth or even sixth record. But not today! You can be commissioned to cut an album, cut the whole album, the label makes videos, they put out one single and if it stiffs, they may abandon the whole project. Well, all I can say is, collectively the record labels are walking right past some of the most brilliant stars we might ever have because it’s got to click right now, to profit in this quarters’ report, not six months from now, not two years from now but right now! And I’m sorry, that’s just not possible. I’m sorry, but creative talent of all kinds … I don’t care if you’re talking about science or music or what you’re talking about … great talent doesn’t come all pre-formed and ready. The guys at the top, the CEO’s, think you order it just like so many widgets … you call down to the factory floor and say: send me somebody brilliant, I need to sell some records. They just don’t get it! That’s not how it happens.

HM: Are you lookin’ for songs now?

AR: I’m not looking for any songs, because I’m not producing anybody. I don’t give feedback because I’m not a critic. I’m a user of songs … so if I’m looking for a Crystal Gayle and I’ve got five songs, I can listen and say I like that for Crystal or I like that but not for Crystal. Beyond that I don’t even think about whether it’s a good song or not a good song or how it could be better or anything like that. I always tell songwriters: look, I don’t teach songwriting. You’ve got to learn that somewhere else. That’s what publishers are for. That’s what friends are for. That’s what records are for. So, I’m not looking for songs, and I’m not looking for anyone who wants me to lead them to the "promised land" ‘cause they’ve got to do that themselves.

HM: Are you lookin’ for new artists to work with?

AR: When I first got into the business, independent producers discovered talent, developed it and took it to the record labels. Then somewhere along in the early ‘80’s, I finished a project that I’d put lots of my time and my own money and my best effort into and started calling record labels. Out of six labels we had at the time, three of them didn’t even want to listen! And I thought, whoops, something has changed here! And I decided then that I wasn’t going to do that any more, because it’s heart breaking for me … being the guy the artist is looking to, and I’ve already done my best. I don’t like being on that hook … when I’ve done my best and nobody’s saying yes. Anyway, I kind of got out of that business. I made one exception … two really. One was that instrumental album, The Memphis Boys, and we did get a label to say yes to that. Then the most recent is Shawn Camp. I did that (recording) with all the good feelings in my heart that I’ve ever had and the best effort I could make. Then after we were through, I said to Shawn, "I haven’t done this in years, but I’d like to go to the labels and present this and tell them how much I think of you and that you’ve got your head on straight and all that stuff". And I did that, and no one was interested … most of them didn’t even call me back. I felt like a chump, and I don’t like feeling like that. So, I’m not looking for anyone, but if they can get a deal, and then they want to come talk to me … then fine … I’d certainly do them the courtesy of listening. But I don’t want to develop an act and then try to get a deal for them. I can only help make the record. I don’t make the record labels like it. I don’t market it. And I don’t want to start a record label. I’m not looking for any work.

AR: HM: So are you retired?

AR: (Laughing) Well, "retired" is not a word I think about, or use a whole lot, but I’m not presently occupied as a producer, because I’ve done it enough to be satisfied. And now I don’t seem to be as willing to be cooped up in the studio. But more that anything else I think producing has gotten to be more laborious and more, uh I don’t know how to put it … there seems to be less flow to it. There are more nervous people at the record labels and managing companies that are looking at every little detail, and that’d be okay if they knew what they were looking at, but most of them don’t. And then there’s radio … radio is rotten! Just rotten! It’s a really screwed up racket. It’s no longer a possible portal to the people. It’s a stacked deck that a lot of big corporations are trying to control from the cradle to the grave. I just don’t have the patience with that. And in the face of these things, I’d just as soon be retired. But my heart is open.

HM: So what’s next for you?

AR: Well, right now I’m catching up on loose ends, and I’ve got a lot of multi-track tapes here I need to work with. Stuff I’ve recorded, and I’ve got to figure out what to do with ... you know, as best, I can I’ll give it back to the other people involved. Other things, like that Memphis Boys album, I want to spend a little time transferring that to a better storage medium so it has a whole lot of shelf life ahead of it. And I may get busy seeing if I can find some uses for that project. Then I’ve got demos and things that I cut years ago for that Mary James album I bought back from the record label … I’d like to get those tapes out and bake them. I’ll have to bake them because they’re so old the oxide is starting to come off. If I don’t do anything else, I’d like to transfer them to a new medium. Then I’ve got demos of my songs that I’ll also have to bake, and then decide if I want to do new demos. I’d like to get my writing catalog in shape. And I’m reading a lot and in the process I guess I’m hoping I’ll get re-energized about writing songs, and get caught up enough so I feel like I can let my mind wander and think about writing some songs.

HM: It sounds like you’re gonna stay busy. I hope you start writin’ again.

AR: Thanks.

HM: Anything else you want to say before we wrap this up?

AR: I will say this about songwriters … and to songwriters: I think songwriters lead the way. I think songs lead the way as long as writers are not following what’s already been done. And what’s possible in the recording studio, is made possible by the material you go in there with. Songwriters meet a lot of discouraging obstacles, but it is true that "everything begins with a song". A record like Friends In Low Places (Dwayne Blackwell & Bud Lee) is not possible until you have the song. That moment is not possible. Don’t It Make My Brown Eyes Blue (Richard Leigh) is not possible until someone writes the song. When the song is there, the artist and the producer have the opportunity to make the record. But they won’t have that opportunity if the song isn’t there. And neither of those songs I just named is like any other at the time they came along. So they both provided a tremendous surprise for the audience, and surprise is what entertainment is all about. So, if it’s any encouragement to songwriters, I want to say from the bottom of my heart, after some 30 odd years doing what I’ve been doing, songs and songwriters lead the way! I don’t care what anybody else says. I don’t care how obscure that seems or how untrue that may seem to anybody else. I can tell you for sure that all of the many multitudes of egos in the business will tend to think that it’s something else. That it’s the label, or it’s the producer, or that it’s the musicians or that it’s the radio station or that it’s something else that makes it happen. But I’m telling you: songwriters lead the way. If there’s anything I can say to songwriters, it’s: find your own light and lead the way. Because nothing is possible until you do that.

HM: And everything’s possible when you do?

AR: That’s right.

HM: And I’ve heard you’ve say me many times, that uniqueness makes the difference. What is it you say … be a contrarian, right?

AR: Yeah, be a contrarian! The song still has to be good, and it has to be graspable, and it still has to have the factors that make strangers go " Wow, sing that again". But beyond that, there is no format, there is no form, there is no requirement … the parameters range from Bob Dylan to Irving Berlin. From the greatest simplicity to the greatest complexity and all points in between. It’s like a wide, huge pallet that any writer can use to make music with. As you know, if you’re writing songs and hoping to have them recorded by artists other than yourself, then you have to deal with the limitations of those artists. It’s surprised me to learn that some of the artists I’ve most admired couldn’t sing just anything. But they could sing the right thing and make it light up.

HM: I was just thinkin’ about Mick Hanly’s song, Past the Point of Rescue … it’s so unique, a classic example of something totally different. And it certainly wasn’t written as a country song. I’ve got Mick’s version and it’s stunning, but it’s also seven minutes long! However, you and Rooney and Hal did a terrific job makin’ it into a record that would fit into the country format. That record, that song had a real impact on me. And although I noticed Hal Ketchum when Small Town Saturday Night (Pat Alger and Hank DeVito) came out, I didn’t ask, "Who is this guy?" until I heard Past the Point of Rescue.

AR: Yeah that’s the same way I felt about that song. And strangely enough, on the way to the office today I was listening to Phoenix (radio), and I suddenly realized I was hearing a bluegrass version of Past the Point of Rescue. Kate McKinsey (?) was the artist … recorded in 1996 with mandolin, banjo, fiddle … the real bluegrass treatment … and damn good! And I thought about Mick, over there in Ireland. He wrote this song isolated from all of "country music"… wrote this song out of his own consciousness, his own heart … and it traveled across the ocean on an obscure label, through obscure routes, and got here. Hal stated it, and then today I’m hearing a bluegrass version … done because Hal did it … and it works great. I thought, "Wow, that’s a great bluegrass song".

HM: Yeah and it’s a great R& B song … and a great country song. Maybe that’s the mark of a great song?

AR: Yeah that’s immeasurable. And that’s one of my favorite songs that I ever got to work with. I love that record we made, but I love the version I heard today the same way. So it’s the song! There’s something real compelling that’s expressed in that song, lyrically and underneath the lyric … like it’s something implied.

HM: I have most of Mick’s albums and something I find interesting: I don’t think he knows any "songwriting rules".

AR: No, he’s too Irish to deal with a lot of rules.

HM: To me, that song is a beautiful example of how you can write completely out of the box and, and … change the shape of the box!

AR: Yeah! That’s so true! And great moments in my musical memory are always songs first! I still think it’s all about the songs. I remember that moment in time when I became aware of the games being played around town … you know, people recording only songs they published or they wrote and that kind of stuff … and that’s when I had this flash, I thought: I’m gonna do well here, ‘cause I’m never gonna play games with songs. I’m always gonna go for the best song I can find. And I have certainly been successful as a producer in this town, and that’s been my one guide that I never faltered at all about. I never lowered my standards … it either stood up for me or it didn’t go!

HM: Sounds like a good place to close this conversation, Allen. Thank you very much for sharin’ your time with us.

AR: You’re welcome, Herb.

(This concludes the Allen Reynolds interview)

Click on the links below to vist the web sites of:

Crystal Gayle

Larry Butler

Emmylou Harris

Hal Ketchum

Garth Brooks

Shawn Camp

Waylon Jennings

Jimmy Webb

Mick Hanly

To learn more about any of the folks (or companies) mentioned in this conversation, just go to www.google.com and type in the appropriate name.